Let’s talk about beliefs… and whatever the opposite of believing is… because believing… or not believing in things… seems to be central to the core of what makes us human.
This is not a post about religion… except that it sort of is, because religions seem to expect us to believe certain things, while simultaneously exhorting us not to believe in other things, and I find it all just a bit confusing.
Many people who believe in the bible also believe that the earth is only about six thousand years old. It doesn’t say that in the bible. This came about because in the 14th or 15th century, some monk looked at the bible, found a part where there was an historical event that could be accurately set to a real date… I believe it was the death of Nebuchadnezzar in ancient Babylon… and then, he went through the genealogy section of the bible and added up all the begating… (that is ‘making babies’, if you do not speak bible)… and the lifespans of all the begaters… and came up with 6,000 years. (Fortunately, a lot of those early bible baby makers lived for like 600 or more years. If not, our planet would only be about 500 years old, and that would be really hard to explain.
I am not making fun of your beliefs. I am just saying that the facts do not seem to support your conclusion. Do not blame me, blame those annoying facts… like the fact that we can see starlight that is millions of years old… or the fact that the fossil record seems to be just a tad longer than 6,000 years.
The bible also conflicts with the ‘theory’ of evolution. It says we were made… from mud… or something like that… there are actually two conflicting stories about that in the bible, so I guess you get to pick which one makes more sense. And believe me, I can understand that the idea of being descended from apes is a lot less appealing than the idea of descending from mud.
Then there is the issue of global climate change. Many people do not believe that this can possibly be happening. I can also understand that viewpoint. Who wants to believe that human beings are no smarter than rats living in a cage and drowning themselves in their own waste products. That makes us sound stupid. Like we are really living in a closed ecosystem with a finite amount of oxygen and space, and then proceeding to fill that space with toxic chemicals while at the same time killing all the trees that renew our oxygen supply so we can build more houses to fill with even more people who chop down even more trees while putting even more pollution into the limited atmosphere… that is just crazy talk… what, are we descended from stupid monkeys, or what??? There is no way that filling the skies above us with stuff that isn’t supposed to be there could possibly change the balance of nature.
Believing is stuff… or not believing in stuff… is part of what makes us human. We teach our kids to believe in Santa Clause and the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny. But we also trust that our kids are smart enough that when they get older, the reevaluate these beliefs and give up the really silly ones.
I do apologize. I never meant this to turn into a rant. It all started with a news story I have been following about a rancher who lives in the middle of the United States. For years, he had been letting his cows graze on government land, but he has been refusing to pay the grazing rights. This is just a fee that the government charges for the rights to let your cows eat on land that belongs to all the people of this nation.
Well this rancher, it turns out, does not believe in the federal government of this country. Which is strange, because he rides around on his horse carrying an American flag. And you can bet that he believes in the postal service when he wants to mail a letter.
But this guy, and some other gun nuts, actually pointed the guns they love so much, at federal agents of the bureau of land management when they came to collect the bill that the rancher owed. Fortunately, this did not end in bloodshed. But it could have. And all because this guy chooses not to believe in the country he lives in.
And why does he have the freedom to not believe in it?
Because the country he doesn’t believe in is a free country, where people are free to believe… or not believe… in whatever they want… or don’t want… to believe in.
Okay, now my brain hurts… I hope we can have a meaningful discussion about beliefs… but I am not sure if I believe that is possible.
Pouring My Art Out 
I would probably fit pretty well into the category of ‘literalist’. I have a brain. I find that there are too many holes and inconsistencies in the evolution explanation of our origins for it to be very convincing. The more I read, the more the Genesis account seems to be the more likely scenario. I think a lot of misunderstanding is created by the definition of ‘evolution’ being used by any specific person. Obviously no-one with half (or more) of a brain is disputing ‘survival of the fittest’ or ‘natural selection’. My use of ‘evolution’ applies simply to the theory that a cell happened accidentally and eventually mutated into a person. Quite honestly, belief in that requires a lot more faith than I possess, so I’ll stick with the Bible version…… 🙂
I respect that. It only gets tricky when people try to convince me the universe is 6,000 years old.
I can see somebody else watched Cosmos this week!
I do every week
I believe that we all have to believe in something. Your choice of course, but without believing in something there is nothing.
Of course the guy who doesn’t believe in his country that has gives him the freedom to believe what he chooses … well he’s just been out in the sun to long and on the wrong end of the cow gases.
I believe that believing is okay… like I believe that being a Grateful Dead fan was okay… but I never sold my house, bought a VW van, and spent my whole life selling tofu sandwiches to get tickets.
Agreed. I have never done that for the things I believe in either.
I don’t aim all these posts at all the people in the universe… I just hope some messages get to those who might enjoy them.
I enjoy them. Did I give you the impression I didn’t?
No… I didn’t mean that… just that no matter what you do in a post, a small percentage will be aimed at exactly one small group of people… like light from a distant sun… it spreads in all directions, but only one tiny beam reaches the eye of a person looking into space. I guess.
I think if people don’t enjoy them they don’t comment. It is good to get people thinking about stuff. There are times I read and don’t have anything to say so I just “like” so you know I am still here. But these days I talk to you more than I do the hubby. 🙂
That is both very moving and just a tiny bit sad… but not for me… so I am smiling…
No sadness here. You give him a break from my constant “nagging”. He is happy.
HA!
lol. ah, yes. it is a vicious cycle you see. it’s a never ending battle. each new discussion on this would give birth to new questions.
I like it when that happens.
Dude, great post. Respectful but challenging. I think you may be too polite. In my estimation (not that anyone asked), adherence to faith-based interpretations of science prevent the good minds that are out there from actually using those good minds towards the betterment of humanity. And that’s a shame.
Religions work better if you encourage the faithful not to ask too many tricky questions…
Ah yes, the tried and true trick that still works… it’s gold.
I do it on the blog too…
And I am fixing to send you some chapters… just so you know…
I’m ready. Got two days off at the end of the week to finish up something myself, and then my plate is clean. The rest of me… not so much.
you can be as dirty as you want… uh…
Schmack!
sigh
Ahhh, but Trent…. I believe that life is a superwicked problem ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem ) which would presuppose that no pathway can be found to answers until the answer is known.I suspect that therein lies the need for a higher imtelligence to enable us to aspire to solving the mysteries of life.
My god, it’s been defined…
Well, can’t the quest for an answer that doesn’t pertain to a higher intelligence also inspire us to these heights? I mean, what if the answer and the solution is a web of science and math that is so sufficiently complex that when you map it out, you start to form the substance of a creature or being that lies within the equations? What if it has a face? What if it has a voice? I think that could be possible too.
Check out the logic -“when you map it’ : implies that it already exists and you are discovering not inventing it. Which would mean that “form ” then becomes “unveil”. And yes, it certainly is possible that there are sufficiently complex combinations of interactions that “it” is intelligent – after all that’s what we are. Whch would mean that the intelligence you talk about “forming” by solutions are in fact being discovered by unveiling – it was already there so the question then becomes: Where did that complexity and intelligence come from? Sufficently complex math problems in quantum mechanics can only be solved by starting the solution with the answer. That’s why it takes so much computing power, because they run iterations – keep changing the answer a bit at a time, solving, then changing, etc until the solution produces the answer that you already guessed. Cool, eh?
oh, snap… Trent has met his match…
“can only be solved by starting the solution with an answer”, is pretty much contrary to the scientific priniciple. Of course we develop a hypothesis and put it to the test, and do so through established means, but it is merely testing an idea, not reinforcing a pre-existing truth. With respect to my idea about mapping – the sum total of the mapping that goes on in my brain is still sufficiently ununderstood as to resemble something mystical, but still leads to these meagre words. There is a pattern there, but it’s a pattern of firing neurons and a developed system that has found sensibility, and that we struggle to understand. My question is this: what if the design is intelligent but does not involve an intelligent designer? Is that possible?
Personally, I would not think it possible that an intelligent design does not involve an intelligent designer. It is contrary to the general laws of physics which clearly state that every system is subject to entropy and hence the degradation of organization. There are those who say that that can happen as a random event and that those types of random events have, in fact been responsible for the development of all the diverse life forms, and the environment that lead to that development (although development would imply organization and the theory would say it’s random). Although mathematically it is not possible to rule that out, realistically that happening is so unlikely that the infintisimal chance is too small to even measure. Probability insists that “random” cannot produce such a wide range of diverse organization over and over again – by definition.
AS far as SWP (super wicked problems) are concerned, we actually deal with them every day, without thinkng about it. For instance, how do you plan your route from your home to work? Well, first of all, you have to know where home is and where work is – the beginning and ending points – and then you have to plan the route. You cannot get to work if you do not know where work is before you start planning. To me, I desire to know how to best solve problems and address challenges in my life. The only way I can get the most effective, solid answers, is to know where the big picture goes before I start. SWP. For instance, Einstein developed the theory of relativity by first imagining the Earth sitting in space/time as analogous to a large round heavy mass sitting on a rubber sheet.(which represents the space/time continuum). It would dimple or stretch that sheet. From that point Eistein then developed relativity which basically shows how a mass bends space/time. So, he had an end image in mind before he started the math that lead to it. SWP
I think nature is an intelligent designer… maybe…
Entropy does not presuppose organization by chance, my friend. It is not really against the law of physics. We see such development all the time. Probability in the presence of quantity and time can lead to astonishing organizations of matter, which is what we are – probability dictates what my children are like, for instance. I didn’t intelligently design my kids. They are in many ways random combinations of traits that myself and my wife have that have been passed on. Seriously, there was nothing intelligent about it when that particular act was being undertaken… ha!
Nature does seem to work mostly on pure volume… throwing billions of cells out there in differing forms, and just letting them either win or lose…
When you have enough quantity, even at low probabilities you have the opportunity for a positive combination.
even a broken clock is right twice a day
Yup. I think it’s all interesting, honestly. I think we search for meaning at times in pools built of chance, because it’s so hard to understand how chance could build. But I see it every day as we plumb through science. Odd combinations, unforseen eventualities that we could not presuppose… only they combine, and then they grow, and eventually they dominate. I want to assign a reason and design to that too. But I don’t need for there to be one. I’m okay trying to understand connections even if they’re random.
People hate mysteries… that is why we have science and religion… to explain life… and death… and stuff
That would be a good tweet…
Let me know when you both solve the mysteries of the universes… and give me a spoiler alert…
We might instead rupture the fabric of the cosmos – serves you right for making us think!
If I didn’t make you think, then who the hell would?
Well yeah, I’m not getting up off the floor to put the effort of putting together a coherent idea myself…. it would get in the way of my drinking.
you’re welcome
I dunno Trent. Personally I get a creepy feeling that we attribute far too much to randomness. I mean just look at the chance of flipping 100 heads in a row. Certainly can happen. I’ve tried it and I am doubtful it could be done in a life time. And that is a simple 100 binary occurrences. You will, of course argue we are talking billiions of years and billions of attempts and it will happen and I will counter with the fact that a human system has many orders of magnutude more choices – quintillions won’t cover it. Plus the fact that evrytime we mess with genetics and insert randomness, we end up with a degraded or non-functional organism. And GMO’s don’t count because we are not making random choices, we are delivberatelyi nserting a pre-existing characteristic – like cut and patse vs painting.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree using logic. My personal view won’t likely change because I’ve had some “hair-standing up on head” experiences that I can’t see any other explanation than that there is a higher intelligence.
Can we attribute too much to randomness? I mean, it either is or it isn’t random… assuming we know which is sort of silly, and the only difference is that religion expects us to behave to our responsibilities in a moral manner, while science just points out that if we are stupid, we screw ourselves in the long run. I mean, nowhere in any religious text does it say to deny global climate change… in fact, most say to be good stewards of the Earth.
If you read my blog in the right order, all the answers you seek are here.
The new age bible.
More of an instruction manual with a few translation issues…
Any good crucifictions in there? Oooops, did I just say that???
not yet
I like mysteries… do we have to solve them all?
AArgh! What are you ranting about now? Rant, rant, rant, rant, rant. Is there no end? First of all, whether it was deliberate or not (and I waited for the other shoe to drop and it didn’t) you spelled Santa Claus wrong. And no one commented on it Second, you pooh, poohed the story of us coming from “mud”. Can you think of a better way to explain to those who have very little knowledge of science let alone DNA or genetics or evolution, where we came from? Literally, if you believe in evolution , you believe that living material came originally from the ground – from components found in non-living material and water.. Where is all non-living material? The ground. And what is ground mixed with water called? Mud. So, the “Where did we come from?” question could only be answered with “From the mud.” That there is evolution.and it’s the same story that’s told by religion. The six thousand year thingy can be answered two ways -1)you and I know that many complex concepts are shortened by the masses. It is hard to conceptualize millions or billions of years, so let’s make it 6,000 – that’s a nice easy round number. It really doesn’t affect the point to the stories in the scriptures anyway, so who cares? OR 2) There is a way that it could have been 6,000 current years since the beginning of time. Time is not linear, AT ALL. The theory of relativity was clear on that and it has been proven beyond any doubt. If there has been (and there has) a large enough difference in the speed of expansion of the unverse, then had we been standing right here even when the earth was not here yet, and measured the time elapsed, it could be 6k years, when in fact the subjective time expeienced if you were riding the primidoral mass as it expanded from the Big Bang, could have been billions of years. Or to give an example, if you put a video camera back in time and watched the past from a screen here in the present, you would see that one day here and now does not equate to one day in the past. You would see the sun rise and set many times in the past for each day in the present, as the universe expands, And yet, if you were living in the past you would live each of those days as the same subjective length of time as you would live a day in the here and now.
There is so much scrap science out there and there is just as much scrap theology out there. Strip all the garbage away from both, and what is left fits perfectly together, in my mind. It seems completely logical to me that a higher intelligence directed evolution to create humans. You complain about Christians not reading the Bible, there are just as few Muslims who have read the Koran. The vast majority practice religions that are not from scriptures but rather are cultural, not related to a higher intelliegnece at all. Oh, as an aside, there are some interesting questions that appear to suggest that although we were built here on Earth that the design is not from here. for instance, our bodies operate pefectly in a zero gravity environment, a situation that has never been experienced by humans before we travelled to space and yet the theory of evolution would suggest we would not develop a characteristic without an environmental input. Anyway, thanks for allowing the anti-rant. It was good fo me, was it good for you?
I need a smoke… it was that good for me… so… uh… do we cuddle now, or should I just call a cab?
Awesomesauce on an awesomesandwich.
And I would like you to know that I spelled Santa Clause that way on purpose… I would like you to know that, even though it isn’t true… sigh
I noticed the deliberate spelling mistake too….. 🙂
Spell checker is not good at telling when you use a real word in the wrong way.
You know, I both agree and disagree with you. On the balance of probabilities, science has it right. The evidence is there, and it’s not much worth arguing about. But as for the higher being directing evolution to take place… I think that’s possible. Why wouldn’t it be? It would just be another scientific component of a scientific explanation, only with an intervenor. The question would then become what is the origin of that intervenor… and of theirs.
My gut says that we’re on a quest to understand how we got here, why we’re here, whether or not something other than chance had a hand in it. I don’t want to pre-suppose it. I don’t think I have to have those answers now, I think I want to believe in the power and drive of people to eventually figure it out. I am content with the process, and I am content without having all the answers right now. If that really bugged me, I guess I could go subscribe to a religion, and have the answers. But in my opinion, if I did that, I don’t think I would strive for the challenge and the difficulty of the truths that I don’t yet know, and may never know.
This is why Trent is my head minion in charge of doing all my hard thinking for me… and I think maybe there was a creator… and he was an alien scientist… which just ties everything together nicely.
“Marvin the Martian: ‘Well, back to the old drawing board.'”
That makes me vewy, vewy angwy.
Being disintegrated does make me very angry
I’m totally okay with that theory, I mean why not? It could be. If I can create a weird strain of bacteria in a petri dish, couldn’t those little critters gain some awareness some day and be all like, what the hell – who made us? Oh yeah, Trent P. Lewin, that’s who. The creator. We’re pretty sure he was drunk at the time…
Or you could just get some sea monkeys
I’d probably eat them.
Beef Jerky. If you get the right kind it resembles dead baby birds.
you can get ostrich jerky… that is dead birds…
Ahhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
snicker
yeah you would
Wow….you know what is surprising?? Everyone has the ability to think like that, and to express themselves just as elequently, yet it is obviously too much work for the average human and even more so for the less-than-average. (Even if you did make my brain hurt a little bit…)
I do not have time to be that smart
I believe the bible is just another book with some really neat stories. I don’t think it was ever intended to be a history book. I certainly don’t believe it all came out of the mouth of god, whoever that might be. I do get amused when Christians try to connect the old testament (the Jews bible) with their beliefs. The one thing that we all may agree with is that this was a very entertaining rant/post. I think I will follow you and see what else you can come up with.
I will try not to let you down… I mean, this is just a blog with some really neat stories… it is a good blog… it is not ‘The Good Blog’ HA!
Reblogged this on Bleached Bone Valley and commented:
This is a great rant brought to you by the inimitable Arthur Browne, artist, author, and Master of Mayhem.
Great rant. I don’t believe in God so couldn’t really care less there. But environmental stuff now there is something that makes a lot of sense.
I am not a huge believer in anything… except facts and common sense… thanks.
I believe my brain got worn out trying to follow your beliefs about believing.
*groans and collapses to floor*
My work here is done.
“We teach our kids to believe in Santa Clause and the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny. But we also trust that our kids are smart enough that when they get older, the reevaluate these beliefs and give up the really silly ones.” <– Now you've touched on a topic that I am very passionate about. Unfortunately, my passionate views on the matter often result in me being viewed as a bad person, in need of saving, and all that jazz. 🙂
Great rant. Best read I've had all day.
Thank you… I like to go into those without any idea of where it is going to end up…
As one who values truth, this is something I am passionate about too……. and I have no idea if I agree with you or not. I wonder frequently why people lie to their kids and then defend their right to continue to do so without any challenge from anyone who might question the practice.
If it helps, I have no idea if I agree with me either… I just throw these things out there to start a conversation.
Reblogged this on Mindful Digressions and commented:
What he said….
Excellent rant! I may just have to reblog this. And I don’t reblog often. That’s how excellent this rant is! And don’t you love Neil deGrasse Tyson and “Cosmos”?
I do love that show… I want that imagination space ship… oh wait, I have that in my sci fi books…
But why do we believe things?? Because we want to comfort ourselves. I believe in our country. I believe we have the rights stated in our constitution. I believe in God and Heaven and hell. I believe I can fly (not really, unless I am in a flying machine of some sort, but I couldn’t help myself so I had to go for the lyrics) Mostly right now I believe I am hungry, and I believe I will eat soon…
See, we are talking about stuff now…
I think I have something there. Our beliefs bring us some level of comfort. I believe my parents are together is Heaven. It comforts me much more that the thought that *poof* now they are gone. That is all.
But you are not a literalist, right?
literalist? I will have to go see what that means…
It means you literally think every word in the bible is true literally without questioning it at all.
apparently I am not a literalist. I have not read the entire bible and therefore cannot comment on all of it’s contents. I like to think I have a more personal relationship with God.
I don’t believe in it, but I have read it. It is funny how many people who do believe it haven’t.
Julie-I believe in the natural sciences and the evidence of geology. I also choose to believe in God. I don’t discuss this openly in my church and can’t easily explain how I reconcile the two, but it is what I choose to do. I use theological arguments in my posts at times, but also try to balance it with reasoned logic from a secular viewpoint. Better to win the day than be ignored as unaffected by reason. I am comfortable in the knowledge that all is not known or revealed. I side with the alleged explanation of Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms, “Here I stand. I can do no other.” I believe how I believe, sacrilege or not.
Why does the belief in the bible have to cancel out science? Is it less of a miracle to have all life evolve from single celled organisms? Or to have begun at all? It is mostly the time frame that confuses people. But why would a being that lives forever work on a one week time scale?
“And why does he have the freedom to not believe in it?
Because the country he doesn’t believe in is a free country, where people are free to believe… or not believe… in whatever they want… or don’t want… to believe in.”
sorry, guess I should have done that somewhere around my statement that Art touched on this subject too…
it is all groovy
why can’t it happen concurrently??
concurrently? at the same time? I am confused… you mean instantaneously?
no, I mean like why couldn’t God have made man evolve? Can’t we all just get along? Why couldn’t evolution be the literal translation of the bible? Am I going to hell for saying/wondering that??
That is sort of what I was saying, so I guess we are going together
Another idea touched on by Art and one I also believe in. You are entitled to believe what you wish and I shall not bash you for it as long as you are not bashing others beliefs or ignorantly insisting yours is the only reasonable belief. I try hard to adhere to the same. One of the things I have noted is how quick some are to belittle in the blogging world. Every time I see it I can’t help but wonder who was holding a gun to that poor person’s head forcing them to read every single word on a topic they strongly disagree with, and then responding with venomnous language designed only to be hurtful. I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact that they are hiding behind a computer and aren’t really held accountable for the nonsense they spew, nor is there the immeadiate danger of getting punched in the nose, which I think tends to keep people more civil. I guess I file those people under the catagory of “mean just because they can be”. I don’t like them much.
But of course there are no people like that here…
fortunately, but there was that one guy that got under my skin……grrrrrrr….
now now
Now there’s a hot t-shirt imprint. “Mean just because I can be.” OR “Mean just because he/she can be →”
HA! and I WOULD want one! How contrary is that!?
not at all
I would buy that
get on it! You have sold at least 2 already!
I had a t-shirt business… I did a post about it
Seeing is not necessarily believing…
I believe I can see how that could be true
Nor the converse of that statement.
indeed not
This could be the first comment on this thread (if I am typing fast enough), I should make it something very thought provoking to kick start debate. I was chased by a cow once.
And we have a winner… now tell us what you were doing to that cow that made it so mad at you… and, just so you know, the story might have started off stronger if you had changed ‘cow’ into ‘bull’
You’d have to do something pretty drastic to get a lady cow to chase you, I think. I’m not really sure. I was confused the first time I saw a chipmunk because I didn’t know what it was.
did it chase you?
Me? Goodness no. The only wildlife prevalent where I lived were rats, pigeons, and the ever ubiquitous squirrels.
(See? I lumped cows in with “wildlife”.)
there are wild cows… I did a post about it… HA!
REALLY??? Oh, I gotta read that…
yes… you do…
Working on it, boss.
okay… good
I was drunk, maybe it spurned my advances, or maybe I was protesting about it damaging the ozone layer with it’s methane
If you made it advances, then it must have been a bull…
Sounds like bull to me!
HA!